Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Troy failed to protect the residents of that community by enforcing the zoning regulations. This is why this neighborhood is in the mess it's in. Now that the "disease" of transient tenant housing has started on Highland (and University), this neighborhood will suffer a repeat of the change seen on Elm street. Crime will increase and more single-family owners will flee the neighborhood until it's all noisy apartments. The city leaders can choose to remove this cancer from this neighborhood or allow it to continue to spread. As a former homeowner in College Heights, I saw the same thing happen in our neighborhood. Personally, I think it's time the remaining single-family homeowners looked into legal representation to protect their homes and try to teach the city through the courts that it has the responsilibity of enforcing the intent of the codes: --R1 means "single family" dwellings.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Troy failed to protect the residents of that community by not enforcing the zoning regulations. This is why this neighborhood is in the mess it's in. Now that the "disease" of transient tenant housing has started on Highland (and University), this neighborhood will suffer a repeat of the change seen on Elm street. Crime will increase and more single-family owners will flee the neighborhood until it's all noisy apartments. The city leaders can choose to remove this cancer from this neighborhood or allow it to continue to spread. As a former homeowner in College Heights, I saw the same thing happen in our neighborhood. Personally, I think it's time the remaining single-family homeowners looked into legal representation to protect their homes and try to teach the city through the courts that it has the responsilibity of enforcing the intent of the codes: --R1 means "single family" dwellings.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK..... So we throw out all the college students on Highland Avenue. Then What? ........ Who will take their Place? We will have a bunch of run down houses that will soon become slum land USA.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not only will the college students on Highland have to move and get other accommodations (From Who knows where) but also the ones who rent on all the other streets that are zoned R-1, also.

Posted by inaword (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 6:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Looking at it as an outsider (I don't own or rent property in the neighborhoods in question), it seems that the non-resident owners have their own comprehensive plan. If it has been this way long enough, then don't we have a right to change the zoning laws to fit the way it is now?

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 8:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The problem is not single families who rent on Highland. And no one is complaining about the families these landlords have rented to. They're welcome to rent the property they purchased, but only to single-family tenants. College students banding together to rent a single-family home are not a single family, even though the specifics of the present code were changed to allow 2 people unrelated by marriage to live as a family unit. The code was modified some years back to prevent discrimination against same-sex partners. Many landlords are using this "gay marriage" loophole to rent to college students. It's a clear violation of the intent of the zoning code.

The majority of people in that subdivision are residents who own and are living in their homes. Most have been there for many years. Their rights extend back to the beginning of the subdivision, when it was zoned and sold as single-family. The folks who have recently purchased homes there as "investment property" are ignoring the zoning rules and the effects are getting worse. It's not time to change the zoning rules to suit the developers and landlords, it's time to force them to comply.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 10:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The problem is going to be is, where do you find enough single families to replace the college students? I for one, do not expect a land slide of single families to suddenly appear and replace the hundreds, if not thousands of vacated houses that the college students are to be evicted from. This is a problem that extends from Highland all the way to Highway 231, On Highland alone, at least every other house is rented to college students. There may be a new Industry or Textile Mill coming back from Mexico but with the economy in its present condition, I do not see any big influx of single families drawing up in their covered wagons with hammer and nail in hand to buy or to rent a bunch formerly college rented housing.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I was told that 100% of the property owners in that section of Highland and/or University in question were in favor of the rezoning. This would include the families still living on the block. Should not the families that live on this street have a say in how their property gets zoned?? Additionally, I can think of no better area of town for new college student apartments than directly across the street from the University.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 3, 2008 at 11:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Troy University has been in existence since 1887. Every one who bought or rented a house in the neighborhood that extends from Highland to Highway 231 knew that they were going to be living in close proximity to a major university. As long as I remember ( I moved to Troy In 1959) there have been college students living in the same places that they are living in now. The only thing that has changed is that now there are property owners on the west side of the University who want to rezone for their own financial benefit. They want the East side of the University around Highland Avenue to stay the same R1 while the west side around Park street to become R3.

Now that Troy University has an Alumni Building already up and running and bigger and better projects on the horizon, I think that the Highland home owner’s wishes should be granted and zoned R3.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 7:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Most of those property owners you speak of are not living on their properties. They bought that land as rental property and are pushing to change so they can make more money at the expense of the hundreds of other people in that subdivision who really are R-1 families. This idea that one street of an R-1 subdivision can suddenly secede from the legal code and become an independent state is interesting, but it is illegal. The precedent is with R-1 and this attempt to overthrow the code is simply an attempt to make money at the expense of an entire neighborhood that includes residents of all those streets. If you check with the other residents in that subdivision, I think you'll find that they outnumber those investors that are making the noise for rezoning.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 7:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In response to the demand for single-family housing in the Highland Ave., that area is most appealing due to its close proximity to everything in Troy; downtown, schools, hospital, stores. The reason single families aren't lining up to live there is that there are multiple tenants living in a single-family dwelling against the code and they recognize that this is a noisy and potentially unsafe environment. Historically, Mrs. Ralph Adams owned those first 2 blockhouses on Highland for years and rented them out to select faculty and college students out of respect for the neighborhood. As far as I know, her careful stewardship of the properties and concern for the neighborhood prevented any problems. With the present owners, that concern is not present. Now the university could buy Highland and turn it into faculty housing; I think that would make everyone happy. That Alumni house is also in violation of the code, btw.

Posted by trojanreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 9:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course the majority of the people on that street want the "new plan". The developer has bought up most of the homes on that street, right? Does he represent the "majority" of the people? Does anyone see the connection here? This is so unfair to the homeowners. Why is one person allowed to "twist" laws to fit "the plan" of making more money? It seems like to me that this could be legally handled, if the homeowners (not including the "investor who bought up some of the homes) can fish through all the corruption to find justice. The "little man" who doesn't have the right connections or the $$$ to fight for justice will at least have a clear conscious. In the long run that is more important than the person who fights so hard to "steal" from others. That is what is wrong with this country now- just look at the financial crisis due to the greed of investors.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ww are talking about Highland and University Avenues here. The argument that it would be radically changing the makeup of the neighborhood is a poor one due to the fact that it seems there are multiple neighborhoods in that area. Usually neighborhoods are defined as in this application as "a section lived in by neighbors and usually having distinguishing characteristics". The 100 and even 200 blocks of Highland and University now have separate distinguishing characteristics than the rest of the residential areas to the South and East. The first two blocks of those streets are currently college student rental properties with a few families sprinkled in. Because these two streets are bound by the Armory and the University on two sides, it would make sense to rezone these areas. It's called rezoning, it comes with progress, and it is not illegal.

Posted by regis (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Unbelievable. Why is it so hard to understand that the houses are currently ILLEGALLY occupied by college students?! The only reason they are there is because the law is not enforced. The home owners who rent to those students are breaking the law. Period. The reason there are more students taking over these areas is because they have run off all real families with their parties and noise and slowly but surely the houses are bought up by renters who rent them to even more college students ILLEGALLY. The process continues until every legitimate family is run off and only college students are left living there ILLEGALLY. Then after every legitimate family is run out, people say, "Well there's nothing but students living there anyway, so let's rezone it!" It is complete BS. The existing zoning law should already be enforced but it is painfully obvious the landlords are in good with city managers. Otherwise, how do you explain the total lack of the law being enforced? Has the R-1 Zoning law EVER been enforced against any of these type renters in Troy? If it has, site me just ONE legitimate example. What good does it do to have laws if only some must abide by them. It is pure discrimination against legitimate single family home owners.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I competeley agree with the argument that the college students currently living on those streets are doing so illegally. But unless there is some magic button that will automatically turn the enforcement agency on, there is no recourse for the actual families that live in that area (and there ARE families that still live there). Now that being said, I still believe that there is no better place in town for a new student apartment complex than Highland and/or University Avenue. It's better than Elm Street and it is certainly better than Corman Avenue. The University has faced a housing shortage for a number of years now and this area would be an excellent spot to put these students.

Posted by trojanreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 11:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Regis-
I think your comment sums it up accurately. For instance - the person buys up many houses on the street (keep in mind that he in thinking ahead). The person occupies those homes with college students to MAKE the situation as close to what he is planning. Then he proposes that the street should be made into houses for students because many of the houses are filled with college students already- and as a previous article stated - that he feels bad because college students do not have anywhere to live and they should not be in this position. BS!!! It is all about greed and money!!!

Posted by macfan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I completely agree that University/Highland make the perfect place for rezoning. Its a better place than Elm, Park, and Corman ave put together. The university will only grow more with time. And clearly it has a housing shortage as it is now. It is only logical that Highland/University should be rezoned to fit the undeniable growth of Troy. If the home owners of those two streets want the change they should receive it since it is their futures that will be directly effected the most. I don't believe that those two streets will be able to go back to single family homes. It's just not that simple. Those disputing the situation are only making things worst for the street, the city, the university, and the future of the families who want the change. So I guess the selfish argument is a mirror that has a reflection back.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The 100 and even 200 blocks of Highland and University now have separate distinguishing characteristics than the rest of the residential areas to the South and East. "

This is not a valid argument for changing zoning, it's an argument for finally enforcing the codes that have been on the books for years. There are plenty of new development opportunities within the planned University Housing zone as shown on the draft of the city plan. As to present student housing being at full capacity, I seriously doubt that all complexes are at 100% capacity. There are probably some non-student residents in those complexes who might enjoy a change to a quiet neighborhood, too.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree that the zoning should have been enforced years ago. No argument there from me. But because the zoning rules have not been enforced, the community has changed. Those houses that were rented are now an a sub-standard condition. Now, conceivably, someone could renovate these houses so that single families would want to live there again, however, I still believe that this is the perfect opportunity to save other neighborhoods in town from a similar fate by providing needed student apartments. Who have you checked with to see if the apartment complexes are at capacity or not?? There was an article in the Troy Messenger about the student housing shortage back just before the fall semester started. I'm sure that by now there might be a few openings here or there due to some student drop outs but overall the article indicated that there was a great need for student apartments.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 3:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that no matter what side that you are on, in regards to this issue, the object is to do what is best for the City of Troy (and that includes the neighborhoods surrounding the University), and Troy University. The university’s main objective is to provide an environment that will allow the maximum educational opportunities to students.

Let’s not kill the goose that laid the golden egg. The students who enroll at Tory University want and need decent and affordable housing. The College students coming from China are probably looking at this debate and are saying that they have already seen what governmental over control can do to their personal lives. I for one don’t want them to go back to China and say that while at Troy University they had to live in small one lot apartments that were packed with students and were extremely unpleasant. If you go up to Auburn University and look across the street from the main University Library, there is an apartment complex called the Commons. It is an exclusive, across the street from the University, Condo like, student Housing. Now is the time for our governmental officials, to step up to the plate and do what is right for the future growth of the University and The City of Troy. The proposed project on Highland and University would be an Ideal spot for such a development. It could be regulated in such a way that would be a lot less stressful than the situation that you have now.

Posted by regis (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 4:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...they have already seen what governmental over control can do to their personal lives."

As in eminent domain and changing the zoning of an area that someone has lived in for 20 years just to placate a group of individuals who have shunned the law for years; all in the name of "betterment of all" at individual sacrifices. Naturally those people not affected by rezoning have no problem with it. They live in areas that are considered "Traditional Neighborhoods" or outside of Troy. They are being asked to give up NOTHING. If the city were proposing to rezone your neighborhood, you would see things from a logical perspective. Unless of course you were a slum lord.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 8:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There's plenty of room on Mckinley Drive for more apartments. Stopping the code-breaking on Highland will not hurt the University; instead it will send the message that the City of Troy cares about its neighborhoods.

Thanks for your comments, Regis...you summed it up wonderfully!

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

“If the city were proposing to rezone your neighborhood, you would see things from a logical perspective. Unless of course you were a slum lord.”

There are two things that need to be done in light of this statement. First, They should pass an ordinance to make the owners of the Apartment complex at the end of Franklin to be torn down and replaced with single family housing. Second, the City of Troy should pass an ordinance stating that it would be unlawful for Troy University to Build or operate an Alumni Center at the end of Highland.

Because, What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander. All of the Homeowners on Highland Avenue are in between these two “Slum Lords”

“Stopping the code-breaking on Highland will not hurt the University”

I don’t know what the zoning code for the Apartments at the end of Franklin are, but if it is R1, the homeowners on Highland deal with these single family members on a daily bases. Certainly, an Alumni Building at the end of Highland would have great appeal to any prospective single family buyers.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 9:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What you are asking is that the families that live amongst the renters give up everything that they have worked their whole life to achieve. It is obvious that those who are opposed to this proposition do not live in the areas in question, but possibly have a stake in an area to the south and east. The FAMILIES that live in that area want to rezone, not only the "slum lords". Just saying over and over and over again that the zoning law should be enforced is not going to do anything constructive. leroy makes a very good point that I had not even considered and that is that apartments already exist at the end of Franklin. Is everyone here proposing that these apartment buildings get demolished??

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 9:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Leroy, you gave me a great idea. We should get the university to build a road to those married student apartments using their access to the drive to the physical plant beside the armory. Then we could ask the city to block student access to Franklin and stop all the speeding and stopsign running that's going on back there. That would make a lot of people very happy.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I would also like to add that the City hired an outside consultant to develop the Master Plan. This consultant took an objective review of the issue and recommended that the 100 block be rezoned. He had no personal stake in the issue. It is interesting to see that an outsider, who is a professional, looked at this situation and made that recommendation.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The majority of families that live in that subdivision do not want the area rezoned. You're thinking of only the Highland/University area few, not the whole neighborhood. There is no shortage of student housing. Why not just take a look at the classified ads in the Troy Messenger under houses/apartments/mobilehomes for rent. That doesn't take into account the realtors and property managers that don't buy ads in the paper. Look at all the apartment ads posted on the bulletin boards in the halls at the University. Considering the massive apartment building project beginning near the Colley Sr. complex, I'd say it's going to be a renter's market next year, so the University can go ahead and close some of those older dorms temporarily for renovation. As Mr. Stephens said, "how does /building/ apartments /on Highland/ create any better situation?"

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you were drawing congressional districts the way that zoning map was "planned" for those couple of blocks, I'd say you were guilty of gerrymandering.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The point is:

“code breaking will not hurt the University”

Maybe if you kick the college students out they may decide to go to a college were they can find decent housing and that will certainly hurt Troy University.

The Alumni Hall at the end of Highland will be a great asset to the University. Not only for football games, but the almost weekly high school and college events that are held on campus. What a great recruiting tool an Alumni Hall would be for the entire city of Troy as well as the University. The close proximity of Highland to both of the Alumni Hall and the Apartments dictates the rezoning of Highland to R3.

As far as a new road is concerned, that is merely a band aid solution to the over all problem.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There was an article in the Troy Messenger about the student housing shortage before the beginning of the fall semester. I just tried looking for it in the older stories section of the website, but it only goes back a few weeks. So, I decided that it might not be outside the realm of possibility that the Messenger just made all that stuff up about the lack of student housing to generate a story. So, then I clicked on the Classified section of the website and this is what I found: Under Houses for Rent (even though that whole concept is kinda how our problem started) 1 house listed for rent in Brundidge, 1 HUD homes generic listing, and 1 generic listing for homes/mobile homes in the Troy/Brundidge & Goshen area. Three listings total under this category. Under the Apartments category there were a whopping 4 listings, one of which was for an assisted living facility (just where every college student wants to live) and 1 listing which was actually a listing for foreclosed houses for sell. So that brings us to two actual listings in this category. Now granted, the one apartment community listed probably has more than one apartment unit available, however if a housing shortage did not exist, then I would suspect that there would be a least a handful of legitimate apartment listings in a Classified section. The economy would dictate that developers would not want to build new apartments in a demographic area that was already over saturated. Therefore, if the argument that there are already enough apartments is correct (which I doubt is the case), then you should have nothing to worry about.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 10:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

“There is no shortage of student housing”

But we are talking here of evicting all the multi student occupants that are currently in R1 zoned neighborhoods. If you take only those who are in non compliance, in the area between Highland and Highway 231 and say, for example, that there are five students in each house. Then you make each student rent his own apartment or house, that will produce a situation where many a poor college student will be sleeping on park benches because all of the available housing will be occupied by his or hers former roommates.

I don’t think that there are enough illegal construction workers in Troy to build that many new housing units.

Posted by trojanreader (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ADDITIONAL HOUSE FOR THE NEEDY COLLEGE STUDENTS!!!!!
It is about greed and taking from others who are at a disadvantage. Why? money, money, money!!!!! It is unreal how something like this is allowed. The issue keeps coming up every year I believe. ..as if the wear down the residents into finally giving up. It seems like the residents are the ones that are supported by the honest people of town.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 4, 2008 at 11:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Those apartments at the end of Franklin were supposed to be married student apartments...(single-family dwellings? not quite) the intent was to keep the area quiet. I understand the landlords wanting to keep their properties earning income, but there are zoning laws waiting to be enforced. There's plenty of housing now and on the horizon with the completion of the new construction on Elm street. If anyone thinks there's a shortage of housing, they can check the bulletin boards in the Adams Center and in the halls of the academic buildings. There's plenty of flyers advertising homes, apartments, and mobile homes in properly-zoned neighborhoods.

The ad for homes for rent mentions multiple homes in the Troy area, not just one. Under apartments for rent, Willow Terrace is leasing, plus one more ad with a Troy phone number. There are 6 ads under mobile homes, with one being a multiple listing. Remember, not every property is advertised in the Messenger, so I'm sure if you called Porter Properties or Adams Realty, they'd find something for you.

Alumni House at the end of Highland is simply a house; a single-family dwelling that the University acquired. It would make a good home for visiting faculty. The pressbox is where the donor recruiting action is because that's where they serve the alcohol. The University should respect the zoning laws and return that home to R-1 use.

Posted by macfan (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 12:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"It is about greed and taking from others who are at a disadvantage."

If the home owners want the change and have wanted it for some time now that is their decision. That is their choice for their FAMILY to make. For MANY it is not about money, it is about accepting the changes that have already happened and moving on. You do bring up a good point about it coming up every year, and guess what, every year those same home owners are ready to make the change. And only gains more support as time goes on. It will be an issue that will continue to come up again and again as the University and city grow. I know the word "change" is a daunting word for many, but with a growing diverse community it is inevitable and after a certain point its about acceptance. Acceptance that these two streets are no longer a neighborhood. It wont go back. You can't just go in and magically fix a neighborhood, especially with the changes the University have already planned for the streets. People want to throw around the greedy excuse, but I assure you that is not the case for many of the families who have been effected by this issue for +20 years and who will continue to be effected by the issue in the future. The ones opposed to the rezoning are the ones who don't even live on the street, so of course they do not care if the ones living on the street are stuck with the consequences of the situation.

"The ad for homes for rent mentions multiple homes in the Troy area, not just one."

So you're solution is to continue to allow college students to live in R1 zoning and continue to allow them to degrade the houses and neighborhoods? That's what got Highland/University into the situation that they are in now. A situation that is now irreversible. It is already R3 there, except instead of a planned property that can be controlled and groomed, they are houses that were not made for college students and many beginning to show it. It's not about fixing the critically broken, its about cutting your loss and planning for the future.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 7:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You're hearing from a loud few on Highland/University that want to change the zoning and increase the problems. The REST of the neighborhood includes single-family homeowners on over a dozen other streets. They comprise a subdivision with legally enforcible zoning standards, and it's time those standards were enforced.

Which homeowner are you? The single-family owner who legally purchased a single-family home in an R-1 zoned neighborhood? Or do you live somewhere else already and are hoping to get big bucks from changing the zoning? I moved my family from College Heights to escape the excessive speeding and 24-hour traffic of homes rented to students in violation of that area's zoning. We complained about those tenants and the city did nothing.

I'm tired of seeing this played out over and over again. Perhaps Highland Ave. will be another Alamo, but its time to stop the cancer of declining neighborhoods and return Highland to R-1. Renovate any single-family homes and put them back on the market. If prospective buyers know that the neighborhood is returning to R-1, then those homes will sell because they are some of the most convenient homesteads in Troy.

Enforce the code that the neighborhood was zoned in from Day 1.

Posted by tmreader (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 9:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

When was the last time that the zoning for Troy was reviewed in a comprehensive manner? That is exactly what the proposed Master Plan does. Perhaps our City leaders know that it is time for a change in that area but also knew that the issue was too sticky to delve into this way. That is why they hired an independent consultant to come in and make recommendations.

It is sad that zztrojan has felt the need to go on the personal attack of others on this post. I am offended that you think I am out to "get big bucks" form changing the zoning. I personally live no where near the area, nor do I own any property there, however I have dear friends whose family has lived in that area for decades. I once also lived in the so called "neighborhood" (back when it actually was one). It pains me to see how degraded it is now.

Could it be possible that the reason the zoning laws are not enforced is due to the fact that there is a lack of student housing, and if they were enforced then there just would not be enough places to live? I'm not saying that is the right thing to do, I'm just saying that it might explain why the codes go un-enforced. Have any of you asked you City leaders why this is happening? Just complaining about it on message boards does absolutely nothing.

Posted by Observer22 (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The city of Troy is under no obligation, legal, moral, or economic, to provide or even facilitate housing opportunities for students at Troy State. The City is obligated to protect the interests and investments of it citizens who purchased homes in areas designated single-family residential neighborhood which zoning was a contract between the city and the homeowner that the city would protect them from just what has happened - the deterioration of the neighborhood due to non-conformance with the zoning ordinance.
What has happened is what used to be called "block-busting" where someone with the means buys one or two units in a good neighborhood, moves in some undesirables for a few years to run down property values, buys up the rest of the block as neighbors flee at bargain prices and then redevelops the block for a handsome profit.
Troy State owns the property at the end of Franklin Drive and because Troy State is a State entity it is not bound by local zoning laws and can do as it pleases. Past administrations with some sense of ... well, just sense ... realized that married students would fit in that neighborhood and restricted that property to that purpose.
As for ideal places for apartments, how about college drive from The Shogun's (Chancellor's) castle to the pi krapp house, and continuing on Luther Drive through what is left of the golf course?
Or, let the State University buy the middle school and convert it into an apartment-frat house-alumni beer joint combination.
Otherwise, apartment complexes ought to go where zoning allows - Hunters Mountain - and if some of those kids don't have cars, let Troy State change its bus routes.

Posted by blissfullygreen (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with Observer22 and would like to ask all of the above posters if they attended the meeting on Thursday night and voiced their opinions to those who matter or if they will just continue to whine about it online?

Posted by jkelly32562 (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To all of you people wanting to evict and tar and feather the college students, most of who know nothing about the zoning laws, they just answered a for rent sign because the university fails to meet the housing needs of a growing university, I would like you to picture Troy with out the economic stimulation of 6,000 extra people who live in your town 9 months out of the year, and the 20,000 people who visit for football games. I do not see how you can honestly say that you don't want college students to be your neighbors because they ALL party and are loud talk about a stereotype.. I for one would love to be evicted as I would file suit against the city for violating the FHA. What this illegal zoning law does is tell someone who is seeking an education they are sub standard and are not welcome to live in your elitist neighborhood. I was aware when I moved to Alabama they would be raciest, sexist, and various other forms hate filled people, but I was not aware that people seeking an education would be frowned upon. How dare you tell me I am not good enough to live in your neighborhood.

Posted by dragonlady (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny...I don't remember the category "college student" being mentioned in the Fair Housing Act. lol

Posted by regis (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't know how many times we have to go through this. The existing zoning is NOT illegal. And these incidents with college students happen over and over. Every time new ones move in, they think they can do whatever they want. The police end up getting called, some kids get arrested, then the parties calm down. Those kids then move out in a year, more move in and the process repeats. It gets very old. The students also do not care how the yards look or whether the house has been painted in 15 years, and neither does the person who owns the houses. The rest of us neighbors have to put up with this crap because the city will not enforce the law even after repeated complaints over the last several years. The home owner who rents three houses in our neighborhood to these kids called me once after my initial complaint and said, "please be patient; I am gonna get some single families from across town to move in there", but it never happened. Yes, I took off work and was at the meeting and yes I spoke my mind, for all the good it will do. I have corresponded with the mayor and Mr. Lott about this for the last three years and nothing has ever been done.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jkelly, I doubt anyone would have a problem with one college student living in a single-family dwelling, but in reality, one signs the lease and subleases to 3-5 more of their buddies. Not all of those students are as mature as you (I assume you're mature because you read the Messenger).

Recently someone actually rented a house on Highland to a fraternity, ATO, I think. Those poor neighbors of the quiet and gentle man who lived there before must have been horrified... and until recently, I lived a few blocks from frat row. We heard loud music at all hours (not just band parties, but "day-after" parties, pledge functions, etc...). I remember sitting in my backyard swing a half-mile away and hearing every profane detail of the latest party mix tape. To tell the truth though, the fraternities noise was less of a irritant than the houses on my block that were rented to college students. The traffic was loud, fast, and constant throughout the night and about 20% of the passengers in those vehicles felt the urge to try to hit the stopsign at the corner with a beer bottle every time they passed.

The Master Plan is a suggestion by a consulting group. They don't know about how Elm Street used to be a quiet family neighborhood. They probably based their opinion from the comments from developers. Well, it's time the rest of the neighborhood had its say.

"Which homeowner are you? The single-family owner who legally purchased a single-family home in an R-1 zoned neighborhood? Or do you live somewhere else already and are hoping to get big bucks from changing the zoning? "

Yeah...I said that...and was feeling pretty emotional when I said it. But you're right...if you read the "you" as being "You", then it's a personal attack. And I'm sorry if I offended you...I've felt such incredible emotional connection with those families on that side of George Wallace, that I kinda let my anger get the best of me.

Posted by jkelly32562 (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well it sounds to me as if this is just another way the current Troy administration is failing to meet the needs of it's citizens. Either get the majority of the people on your block to form a home owners association and handle it yourselves, our quit voting for your friends, and avoid the good ole boy network and run for city council and do something about it. The way it has been explained on here, this has been a continuous problem that has been brought to the administrations attention. If they were going to do anything about it, I am sure they would have done it already. How long has Lungsford been mayor? Long enough to have solved this problem of his citizens. I haven't been in Troy very long, but government is government, if you want something done, form a group and run for office and do it.

And to clarify, I am not a fan of the college student stereotype you are forcing on me. It is the equivalent of saying all black people are loud, and drink and party, and all white people in Alabama are racist.

And if you are sure it was the ATO frat, one phone call to their adviser would have solved that problem.

Posted by dragonlady (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We shouldn't NEED a home owners association, there are zoning laws that need to be enforced.
As for not liking what we're saying, if what we're saying doesn't apply to you, then it's not for you. But if you're one of the people breaking the zoning law, if the beer coolie fits, wear it.

Posted by leroy (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 3:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It does not mater what you say or what I say about the issue of rezoning of Highland Avenue. What matters is what the City Council of Troy’s vote is, on this issue. But before any one who lives on Glenwood, Homewood , Sussex, Hillcrest , Murphee or any street that is now zoned R1, rushes to pick up the phone to call their city councilman to persuade them to vote against the comprehensive Community Master Plan, stand up and walk out your front door. Look to your left and to your right and see how many College Students are living on YOUR street. Guess what? These student occupied houses may soon be vacant houses. Because, the college students may soon be evicted. “If the Glove Fits, You must evict”, to paraphrase Jonny Cockaran. Just about everybody that I have talked to from theses neighborhoods have a horror story to tell about college students moving in on THEIR street.

Do you think that the owners of the New Apartment complexes on Academy Street or Elm Street actually care how many vacant houses are on the R1 Streets around Troy? If you go to almost any town or city in the USA today you will see row after row of streets with for sale signs in the front yard. The Banking system in America is on the verge of collapse, Credit for mortgages is on the verge of becoming non existence because Banks have lost so much money on real estate. Why is this? ....Governmental regulation!!!! Fanie Mae and Fredie Mac are just the tip of the ice berg. Now The City of Troy is about to begin enforcing it’s zoning Regulation? I think not, if they want the property values to remain high and keep the tax money rolling in.

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 5:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A college student living by herself/himself in a single family neighborhood is not in violation of the R-1 zoning. If the city needs more income, they might consider raising the fines on zoning violations.

How about passing a "Good Neighbor" Ordinance? This would define "nuisance" in meaningful ways (litter, unmowed lawns and noise) and set penalties for landlords who don't care about what their tenants are or aren't doing.
Other college towns have wrestled with these issues and there's no need for us to reinvent the wheel. Example =
http://www.purdueexponent.org/city/publi...

Shall we talk about the troubles on Walnut and College Streets next? Those folks are in the same boat. There's an apartment right in the middle of the historic section and Sister Schubert is trying to open a hotel adjacent to the 1st Baptist church...

Posted by learning (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 9:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

These kids are just kids. Their parents sent them here hoping that there would be somebody who would say NO!!.
Our city officials are people I have known all my life. Believe me when I say, they do say NO!!!.
If you call me to come unstop your toilet, I will come unstop your toilet. But when you cry about what it cost, I'll explaine the cost of gas to you.
If you want the City of Troy to solve the problems you are seeing with the college kids, guess what.
All you have to say is "NO"!!! These kids will listen.
Most of these young people are good kids. They just need mama and daddy close by. If we're going to be a good college host, that's our challenge. I'm okay with that myself. How about some of the rest of you guys?

Posted by trojanreader (anonymous) on October 5, 2008 at 10:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I support housing for college students but i disagree with the way it is being done. What happened to the land where apartments were built close to the elementary school? it is interesting to check court house records. I think a good location for the student housing would be the land behind the developers home (another interesting story)! it is close to the university! This land was taken much like in other cases. The owner was forced to give up the land for near nothing, was worn down, until the owner had no other choice but to give up. It is interesting to see the court house records. It seems that the same thing is happening here. It is high time that people stand their ground and stop what has been an ongoing problem for so many people
and for so many years.

Posted by Bamabunny (anonymous) on October 6, 2008 at 9:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's easy for me to comment either way on re-zoning in the Highland area because I do not live there. But if I did I would have a major problem with single family dwellings being rented to college students in the name of the almighty buck...and that's just what it is.

If money can be found to expand the stadium the way it did...I think that the university can probably find the money to build more dorms to house their students on university property.

Apartments are jammed with "friends" of students needing a place to stay...and renting a home to "2" students can easily go to "12" students...and we all know that is a recipe for major problems with noise and parties and God only knows what else.

It would be totally unfair for the single family home owners there that have lived in that area to have to accept the fact that the house next door is no longer a "single family dwelling"...and not have a legal leg to stand on if this area is re-zoned allowing multiple dwellers under one roof.

The law is the law and it should be enforced...but if this area is re-zoned...and problems mentioned soon exist...is the homeowner going to be told "there is nothing we can do because this area is now re-zoned to accomodate students." (?) And if that becomes what home owners will have to hear...then why would it be easy for authorities to enforce that and not the previous law of "single family dwellings"?

Enforce the law now for R1 living and build more dorms. If the golf course has to go to accomodate these new buildings...then so be it. We should be more in favor of the home owners that live in their homes than the landlords that rent to the students and create problems.

Posted by Murph (anonymous) on October 6, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yeah! And make sure to go after those unmarried couples who are living together too. Technically they are not family so they too should be fined! So all you couples living in R1 zoned neighborhoods who are not married better run!

Posted by zztrojan (anonymous) on October 6, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe that under Alabama's interpretation of common law marriage, those couples are all already married in the eyes of the law.

Posted by regis (anonymous) on October 6, 2008 at 8:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ZZTrojan:

You are correct:

"...the elements required for a common law marriage are (a) capacity (both spouses must be at least 14 and mentally competent); (b) present agreement or mutual consent to enter into the marriage relationship; (c) public recognition of the existence of the marriage (calling each other "my husband" and "my wife"); and (d) cohabitation or mutual assumption openly of marital duties and obligations." To constitute a valid common-law marriage, there must be mutual consent between the parties to be husband and wife, followed by cohabitation and living together as man and wife."

Something else to consider for all of you who wish to go this route:
"By the same token, once a couple is married at common law, their marriage does not end just because one of the spouses wishes this to be so. As one court put it, "There is no such thing as being a 'little bit' married."

Posted by Observer22 (anonymous) on October 6, 2008 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If the city does not cave to the apartment developers it might actually be doing them a favor. Consider that WorldCom was going great guns until reality struck; Health South was going great guns until reality struck; EnRon was going great guns until reality struck; the housing market and mortgage investments were going great guns until reallity struck; Troy State claims to be growing by leaps and bounds but reality is likely to strike again.

Troy State as a world educational leader or Troy State as an NCAA division one program or Troy State growing by leaps and bounds all have the aura of the Emperor's new robe.